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1989-09-26 Planning Comm MinutesCITY OF MENDOTA HEIGHTS PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES, SEPTEMBER 26, 1989 The regular meeting of the Mendota Heights Planning Commission was held on Tuesday, September 26, 1989, in the City Hall Council Chambers, 1101 Victoria Curve. Vice Chairman Anderson called the meeting to order at 7:32 P.M. The following members were present: Anderson, Koll, Dwyer, Krebsbach, Duggan and Tilsen. Chairman Morson was excused. Also present were Public Works Director James Danielson and Planning Consultant Howard Dahlgren. APPROVAL OF MINUTES AYES: 6 NAYS: 0 CASE NO. 89-35 PAUL, WETLANDS Commissioner Duggan moved approval of the August 22, 1989. Commissioner Dwyer seconded the motion. Mr. Richard Paul, 940 Wagon Wheel Trail briefly explained the reason why he was requesting a wetlands permit. He stated that he was in the process of some building construction of his home deck and when it came time for a City inspection, the City's Inspector noted that the deck was located within the City's Wetlands district. Mr. Paul further stated that when he met with Planner Dahlgren he noted that his home was constructed closer than 100 feet to Roger's Lake in 1978-79 without having obtained a Wetlands Permit. He stated that the site plan he submitted shows the home to be approximately 35 feet from Roger's Lake. In response to a question from Vice Chairman Anderson, Mr. Paul stated that he has considered putting on a three season porch and that the footings were made to support the possible structure. Commissioner Krebsbach stated that she was concerned about precedent setting. She stated that there is a lot of development around Wetlands in the City and she stated that she was concerned that other people may request to do the same as Mr. Paul. She commented that it could get a little crowded around the September 26, 1989 Page 2 Wetlands. In response to Commissioner Krebsbach's questions regarding the City bearing some responsibility for not issuing a Wetlands Permit originally, Planner Dahlgren stated that the Wetlands Ordinance was in effect when the house was built ten years ago and that he was unsure as to why there was an oversight on the City's part in not issuing a Wetlands Permit. Commissioner Duggan stated that according to the plans submitted that the property line extends into the lake. He asked how far the property line extends into the lake. Planner Dahlgren responded that on the plans submitted, there are two lots that Mr. Paul owns. He stated that the second lot extends into the lake and that Mr. Paul is a considerable distance from the theoretical rear lot line but that it is out in the water. He further stated that the Wetlands Ordinance clearly relates to the normal water line and not the rear lot line. Commissioner Dwyer moved to recommend to the City Council that the hearing be waived and that a Wetland Permit be granted for the non-conforming garage and deck. Commissioner Koll seconded the motion. AYES: 6 NAYS: 0 CASE NO. 89-36 Vice Chairman Anderson opened the meeting EAGAN POOL & SPA at 7:45 P.M. for the purpose of a public CAO VARIANCE - hearing to discuss a request from Eagan HEARING Pool and Spa for a CAO Variance to construct a pool at 1755 Lexington Avenue. Mr. Bob Dahm, Southview Design and Construction, stated the he has drawn the plans submitted to the Commission. He stated that the land is a flat area on top and a large retaining wall was built on the west side of the house. He stated that what they have proposed to do is construct a kidney shaped pool with adjacent patio space, a spa which would be slightly above ground and a landscaped patio fencing associated with that construction. He stated that he has done September 26, 19891 Page 3 a lot of work with Eagan Pool and Spa and that he feels very comfortable with their excavator, builder and their construction techniques with the pool itself. Mr. Dahm further explained the reasons as to why they have chosen this particular location of the pool on this land. He stated that he is very considerate of the homeowner. He stated that it is important that the pool or patio space relates to how the home is used. He stated that there is a large existing lanon stone retaining wall creating the walk out situation at the back of the home. He stated that there was some talk about removing and rebuilding the retaining wall but that it would expose some basement foundations that require forty-two to forty eight inches (42" to 48") of fill on the foundation for frost protection. He stated that it would be very expensive to move the wall and protect the exposed foundation area. He further explained that there is an existing patio area that is about the same size and that they are not adding a lot of hard surface other than the pool itself and an apron around the pool. He stated that a fence would be put around the pool to prevent access. Then the idea would be to topsoil grade, sod, and rock and poly along with some planting. He stated that one of the reasons that he feels comfortable with the project is the type of construction the Fox's Pool uses. He further explained that the bracing system is very intricate and that allows the support of the structure. He stated that this is one of the reasons why he feels comfortable with going that close to the slope. He stated that the intent is that the pool is right at the edge of the slope and that the existing slope will remain. He stated that they don't want any erosion to occur. He stated that there were a couple of recommendations made in the staff reports. One would be to rotate the pool all the way around to the southwest and that he didn't feel that it would be economically or physically a solution. Another recommendation would be to bring September 26, 1989 Page 5 line to protect it. Mr. Dahm responded that they still build dry set lanon stone walls but they definitely don't build them to that height and to that degree. He stated that he would be very leery in taking apart the wall and that he would not touch that project. He commented that the lanon stone wall has been there for about 35 years and that structurally the wall appears to be very solid. He stated that he would be very uncomfortable in taking the lanon wall down. Vice Chairman Anderson stated that his concern is that when there are storms there is some erosion to the sub soil. He stated that there could be disastrous results with concern to washouts on the bluff. He conveyed his concern for the Community when the Commission approves these intrusions that are close to nature. He stated that he is concerned with making a recommendation to the City Council with this plan as proposed. Commissioner Duggan commented that there is a major discrepancy in the design. He stated that on the large map it seems that the concrete skirting around the swimming pool abuts the fence. He stated that the plan indicates that the concrete skirting around the pool is three feet (3'). On another map it states that there is some space - he asked where Mr. Dahm where he found the space. Mr. Dahm stated that the intent is that the fence line would be adjacent to the concrete apron line. Mr. Dahm responded to a question from Commissioner Duggan that the plan is re-worked from a topo given to him by the City. He stated that he transposed the survey and topo into the submitted drawing. He agreed that there was a mistake on his part on the one plan showing the fence away from the pool. He stated that the intent would be to place the fence adjacent to the three foot (3') apron. Commissioner Duggan stated that he stepped out from the lanon retaining wall and that he didn't feel that there would be enough room to build 22' x 44' pool. September 26, 1989 Page 4 it around on its top side in front of the home. He stated this would not work well because there is a significant amount of large Maple and Spruce trees near there and that the homeowner's have just put sewer and water in right through the area. He further commented that in the real estate business there is a term called functional obsolescence and that is what will happen in Minnesota if you put a swimming pool in the front yard. He stated that very seldom is that done. and that would be a negative aspect to that property. He stated that putting the pool in the front yard would not be acceptable to the homeowners. He stated that another recommendation in the report that he feels has some validity is to rotate the pool slightly rather than being parallel to the slope. Mr. Dahm commented that their intent is not to encroach the bluff line. He further stated another problem that they would have to contend with is that they would have to stay within a reasonable distance from the footings of the structure. He stated that he tried to be as accurate and as realistic as he could on the plan. Vice Chairman Anderson stated that there were some stakes in the ground when he visited the site and he asked if those reflected the outline of the pool. Mr. Dahm stated that the white flags were put in so that he could discuss the general location of the pool with the homeowners. He stated that by no means was the pool expertly staked out. Vice Chairman Anderson stated that it seemed to him when he was reviewing the site and the plans that part of the apron and fence actually extend beyond the slope. He stated that the Commission has been very concerned about the instability of the sub soil and erosion in the Critical Area corridor. He stated that it would seem in order to accommodate the applicants that not only could the pool be somewhat straightened and aligned with the bluff line and that the lanon wall could be rearranged. He asked if there has been any serious estimates in bringing the pool back from the bluff September 26, 1989 Page 6 He stated that it seems awfully tight. He commented that he was a little concerned that the drawings are more than generous in their favor as opposed to reality. Commissioner Tilsen also stated that he stepped off the distance and found the bluff line to be encroaching well into the pool. He stated that he stepped off from the corner of the house directly along the westerly house line and that he stepped off approximately twenty -two feet (22') which would put it into the pool. Commissioner Duggan stated that the plan is somewhat inaccurate and that even if it was accurate when they start constructing (he stated that he understands the details of the Fox Pool) you are literally going to have to tear some of the bluff line and insert the Fox material. He stated that he couldn't possibly see how they can restore something to its former site lines when they have already encroached the bluff. Mr. Dahm stated that the site plan is based on his measurements and the City's topographic map and that it is not representing a surveyed engineered drawing. He stated that he understood the Commission's concerns and that he wasn't trying to say that there should be no concerns. He further stated that what he is looking for is a solution that will alleviate everyone's concerns. Commissioner Duggan stated that he noticed a large rock sitting in the proposed sod area. He asked how much rock is underneath the house and the proposed area. He commented that he can't see them moving all of that without causing damage to the house. He further asked how long the homeowners have owned the home. Mr. Terry Hall, owner 1755 Lexington Avenue, responded that they have owned the home for three (3) years and that the rock he saw was actually excavated up when they filled the septic tank. He stated that the rock could be lifted. Mr. Ross Erickson, Eagan Pool and Spa, September 26, 1989 Page 7 explained the proposed pool and how he was going to construct the pool. He stated that they are not going to change the existing grade in the back yard. In response to a question from Commissioner Duggan, Mr. Erickson responded that dump trucks would be removing the dirt from the area. Commissioner Duggan questioned whether the dump trucks would hurt the slope area and Mr. Erickson responded no. Commissioner Duggan responded that there is a lot of dirt and that when they remove the dirt they will be fairly close to the retaining wall. He asked what will be holding the retaining wall in place when they create that hole. Mr. Erickson stated that the retaining wall is on the far side of the house and that the majority of the pool is from the retaining wall back from the house. Mr. Erickson stated that the twenty-two feet of width (22') is at the absolute widest of the pool. Commissioner Duggan stated that when he stepped from the retaining wall to the bluff line he didn't think that he had twenty-two feet (22'). He stated that the pool is twenty-two feet (22') and that there is three feet (3') of concrete skirting on either side and when they add those together there is twenty-eight feet (28') and he wondered where the fence goes. Mr. Erickson stated the homeowner's property exceeds the bluff line. Mr. Erickson further explained the wall of the swimming pool (referring to a map) the bracing structure and that the concrete deck would be on top. He stated that a lot of the decks in swimming pool construction are not supported so if there was a heavy rainstorm the deck would slide, but in this braced structure, the concrete decking is at the point between the pool and the bluff line which is tied into the bracing structure so that if the concern is heavy erosion, the fill nor the concrete could ever move down the bluff line because it is all tied into the bracing structure. He stated that this pool is a self standing pool and that it will never move. September 26, 1989 Page 8 In response to a question from Commissioner Tilsen, Mr. Erickson responded that the water is pumped out about six inches (6"). Commissioner Tilsen questioned that when the water freezes in the pool there is actually not enough support on the outside of the pool to stop the pool from pushing the slope out. Mr. Erickson responded that that is why they pour a continuous footing around the perimeter of the pool. He further stated that this swimming pool is the only swimming pool on the market that gives the consumer a guarantee from the manufacturer. He stated that you could take the earth away and the water out of the pool and it would stand. He stated that they don't need to equalize the pressure because of the bracing structure. Commissioner Dwyer asked Mr. Erickson how much of the bluff line will be taken away during the course of construction. Mr. Erickson responded that they don't anticipate taking away any of the bluff. He stated that they will be right up to the bluff line and not encroaching the bluff line. Commissioner Dwyer asked if the bracing system would be exposed on the bluff line and Mr. Erickson responded no and that it would be backfilled Commissioner Duggan asked what the slope line is and Mr. Erickson stated that it is around forty percent (40%). He stated again that they will be right up to the edge of the bluff line but that they won't be into it. Commissioner Tilsen pointed out that based upon his visit and Commissioner Duggan's visit to the site that the bluff line is already in the pool. He stated that both of them individually found the same results without discussing the problem before hand. He stated that there is a serious problem in even considering this plan and that if they want to discuss the alternatives that would be the next step. He stated that he was not going to be convinced that the layout presented, accurate or not, that it was clear when he visited the site that when he stepped out the measurements that it was over the bluff line. September 26, 1989 Page 9 Mr. Erickson responded that in the reports written there was a suggested alternative which was rotating one end of the pool (referring to a map) in a clockwise fashion back so that the pool would be closer to the house and further away from the bluff line. He stated that would be a very positive alternative. Vice Chairman Commissioner Anderson responded that the back portion of the house is already within the forty feet (40') of the protected area. He stated that the area where the pool is proposed to be constructed is a grassy absorbent soil which would seem helpful in reducing the stress on the bluff. He then asked for some comments from Planner Dahlgren on the matter. Planner Dahlgren responded that the drawings they have submitted indicate that the top of the bluff goes right next to the pool and the three foot (3°) platform around the pool extends into the bluff line. He stated that is also verified in the section that they drew. He further stated that if they extend the slope it comes up to the edge of the pool and the three foot (3') overhang is hung out over the bluff. He stated what they proposed, according to the section map, about a five foot (5') vertical wall on the bluff line, which when we discussed that prior to your submission, we suggested that it was wrong and that you should pull it back. He pointed out that when they first discussed this matter before going out and looking at the site that their first suggestion was that this was a very large lot with a great deal of land in which to work, the problem is that the backyard is very small because they put in a retaining wall in a manner so that the rear yard is very shallow. Planner Dahlgren further stated that the actual cost and difficulty in moving the lanon stone drywall is really quite simple. He stated that the clear way to solve this problem is to adjust the site so that you have more land to work with and stay away from the bluff. He stated that it is a very steep slope and to hang a platform as they have proposed is a September 26, 1989 Page 10. catastrophic proposal. There is no way that they can protect that bluff line by extending out over it. He again stated that a simple solution to this problem is to move the drywall because it can be easily dismantled and easily put back. Mr. Dahm commented that what Planner Dahlgren was referring to was an original sketch that they had done before they consulted the City. He stated that they have no intention of building a wall outside that area on the bluff. Mr. Dahm stated again that they have no intention of building a wall and that was on an original drawing. Mr. Dahm stated that the intent of the project is to build the pool. He stated that in fact, the fence is a wrought iron fence which will be mounted on the edge of the concrete itself. Vice Chairman Anderson stated that the Commission is very sympathetic with the concept of trying to do something for the applicants in allowing them to use the property as much as they would like to because they are the owners, but still have some accommodation to the Critical Area Ordinance. He further stated that the Commission is very concerned and have some real significant reservations about the proposal as submitted at this time. He asked if there was a willingness to consider moving the lanon wall back so that they can have a reasonably sized area within which to put the pool. Mr. Terry Hall, 1755 Lexington Avenue, stated that the question in reducing any chances of erosion is reducing the size of the pool. He stated that if there is a risk to the house in moving the wall they won't do it. Commissioner Dwyer stated that it is a big pool being put into a small space and that they are putting it in an area where the Ordinance instructs the Commission to limit anything within forty feet (40'). He further stated that they are planning to build right at the lip of the bluff. Mr. Hall responded that he has looked at the Ordinance and that it is unclear. He stated that if they look at his property September 26, 1989 Page 11 line, the lip of the hill is in the middle of their house. Their house is up higher and the property line is built in there. He stated that they want to put a pool in and not deteriorate the_bluff. He stated that they will not allow the hill to deteriorate because it is their property and not the City's property. In response to a question from Commissioner Duggan regarding taking away twenty feet (20') from the lanon wall, Mr. Hall stated that some trees may be killed. Commissioner Duggan stated that the Commission's first concern is that the homeowner gets the best product and best site for themselves. He stated that the plans are not adequate and that they are buying a "pig in a poke" and that you are getting into danger. He stated that with the money they are spending, it would be to their advantage to get a survey done and look at some other options. He stated that it is a beautiful site and if the pool was swung to the side, it would enhance the property. Commissioner Koll stated that the major concern is the support of the pool. She asked what would happen with the drainage and asked what the distance is between the house and the highway - how far would the water travel down the hill. She asked if they have talked to the neighbors. She stated that she would not be comfortable in approving anything because they are on the edge of the bluff. She further stated that the Commission needed details and accuracy. Mr. Dahm commented that he has field notes that he took with a measuring wheel which is standard measuring procedure. He stated that he did indicate to the Commission earlier that the drawing was not a survey. He stated that it was his best attempt in getting accurate measurements in representing what was on the ground. He stated further that the comments that have come in regards to the validity of the plan based on somebody pacing it is getting quite disturbing. He stated again that the intent is that the edge of the apron does not encroach September 26, 1989 Page 12 or exceed past the point of the bluff. Vice Chairman Anderson stated that the concern is that the entirety of the project is within the prohibited forty feet (40') and he stated that he doesn't feel that anybody feels that you are inept or that the plan is poorly conceived. He further commented that the Commission wants to see some buffer zone and that they are trying to find some way where the pool can be in an area where the people want it so that they can use the pool. Mr. Dahm stated that he is not taking the comments personally and that he is only indicating to the Commission that he is trying to come up with a solution to the problem. He further stated that he does not appreciate the connotations here that this is a "pig in a poke" job and that the work he has done for the Hall's is based upon measurements take by a measuring wheel and not based on the pacing, which some of the Commissioners have done. Commissioner Tilsen stated that their pacings says exactly what the drawing says. He stated that they are not disagreeing with what the drawing says. He stated that what they paced off agrees with your measurings and your work. He stated that what the Commission has in front of them is not what they are proposing. He stated that they should take heart to what has been said tonight and go back to the drawing board and propose something that is a compromise. In response to a question from Commissioner Dwyer, Mr. Dahm stated that he measured the lanon stone wall at forty seven feet (47') long. He stated that he went to the end of the lanon stone wall and went perpendicular twenty feet (20') at the end of the wall. He then stated that he went to the corner of the house and went out to what he judged to be the lip of the bluff and measured twenty - seven /twenty -eight feet (27'/28'). He then went to the edge of the sunroom to what he considered the edge of the bluff and measured eighteen feet (18'). He stated that is how he established the AYES: 6 NAYS: 0 September 26, 1989 Page 13 approximate bluff line. Vice Chairman Anderson then asked for comments from the audience. Mr. George Milliman, 1140 Sibley Memorial Highway, commented that he feels that Mr. and Mrs. Hall will come up with a good solution to the problem. He stated that he has attended the Lilydale meetings regarding building of condominiums along the bluff line and stated that they were built too close to the bluff line. He then stated that the City of Lilydale managed to arrange the runoff so that there wouldn't be a problem with drainage. Commissioner Duggan asked who was going to be building the swimming pool. Mr. Erickson responded that Eagan Pool and Spa would be. Commissioner Duggan then asked if Eagan Pool and Spa was still in business because he had heard that they no longer were. Mr. Erickson responded to Commissioner Duggan that he has made some awful derogatory comments and stated that Commissioner Duggan has really annoyed him. Mr. Erickson then responded that they are a fully viable company and yes they are in business and that Eagan Pool and Spa intends to build the pool. Commissioner Krebsbach stated that the point is not to question the reputation of either Southview Design or Eagan Pool and Spa. She stated that she thought that the plan was presented well. Commissioner Krebsbach moved to close the public hearing. Commissioner Duggan seconded the motion. Commissioner Krebsbach moved to recommend to the City Council that they deny the request for the variance based upon the proposal presented. Commissioner Dwyer seconded the motion. After much discussion regarding whether Mr. and Mrs. Hall would be able to present a new proposal in the future. AYES: 6 NAYS: 0 AYES: 6 NAYS: 0 AYES: 6 NAYS: 0 September 26, 1989 Page 14 Commissioner Krebsbach moved to withdraw her motion to recommend to the City Council denial of the request for a Critical Area Variance. Commissioner Dwyer seconded the motion. Motion Withdrawn Commissioner Duggan moved to withdraw the previous motion to close the public hearing and moved to re-open the public hearing. Commissioner Krebsbach seconded the motion. Commissioner Duggan asked whether they could get the pool into the ground safely yet this year. Mr. Erickson answered yes but that even if they can't the bearings would still be placed. Commissioner Duggan then stated that it might be fair to pursue that direction. He stated that he is not opposed to the idea. He then stated that the information he had received about Eagan Pool and Spa was passed on to him by a person who does not owne a swimming pool. He stated that he apologizes for the previous comment and that he was not trying to "slur" him. He stated that when he looked at the design he felt that the numbers were inaccurate. Commissioner Duggan moved to continue the public hearing to the October 24, 1989 meeting with a hearing time at 7:45 P.M. Commissioner Krebsbach seconded the motion. In an unrelated manner, Planner Dahlgren stated that Mr. George Milliman who was present at the meeting was an early charter member of the Mendota Heights Planning Commission and was instrumental in the corporation of the early Comprehensive Plan. He stated that he had more to do with the early stability and formation of the Planning Commission than any other person in the City. CASE NO. 89-34 MINNESOTA INDOOR SOCCER ARENA - HEARING AYES: 6 NAYS: 0 VERBAL REVIEW ADJOURN September 26, 1989 Pacte 15 Mr. George Milliman then responded that he wanted to congratulate Planner Dahlgren on his long tenure in steering the City of Mendota Heights in its proper path. Commissioner Duggan moved to continue the public hearing to the October 24, 1989 Planning Commission meeting at 8:00 P.M. Commissioner Dwyer seconded the motion. Acting City Administrator Jim Danielson outlined the actions Council had taken on last months planning cases. There being no further business the meeting was adjourned at 9:36 o'clock P.M. Respectfully submitted, Kimberlee K. Blaeser Senior Secretary