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1992-01-14 Parks and Rec Comm Agenda PacketCITY OF MENDOTA HEIGHTS DAKOTA COUNTY, MINNESOTA AGENDA PARRS AND RECREATION COMMISSION January 14, 1992 - 7000 P.M. 1. Call to Order. 2. Roll Call, 3. Approval of December 10, 1991 minutes. 4. Presentation of Preliminary Sketches of Kensington Building - Station 19 Architects Keith Sjoquist Dick Bromley 5. Kensington Park Update - Council Action on Recommendation - Progress Report 6. Discussion of Recreation Programming and Staffing 7. Response to Request for Wildflowers Along Trailways Feasibility Report for Pilot Program Guy Kullander, Parks Project Manager 8. Sibley Play Equipment - Revisit Implementation Date 9. Verbal Updates. 10. Adjourn. CITY OF MENDOTA HEIGHTS DAKOTA COUNTY, MINNESOTA PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MINUTES DECEMBER 10, 1991 The regular meeting of the Mendota Heights Parks and Recreation Commission was held on Tuesday, December 10, 1991, in the City Hall Large Conference Room, 1101 Victoria Curve. The meeting was called to order at 7910 o'clock P.M. The following Commission members were present: Huber, Lundeen, Spicer, Damberg, Katz and Hunter. Commissioner Kleinglass arrived late. Also present were Parks Project Manager Guy Kullander, Civil Engineer Klayton Eckles and Administrative Assistant Kevin Batchelder. Guests at the meeting included Dave Libra, Mend -Eagan Soccer; John Bruder, Keith Campbell and Jim Adams of Sting Soccer. APPROVAL OF MINUTES Commissioner Damberg moved approval of the November 12, 1991, minutes. Commissioner Spicer seconded the motion. AYES: 6 NAYS: 0 KENSINGTON PARK - FINAL CONCEPT DESIGN Chair Huber opened the discussion by asking the soccer representatives a question about the relationship between Mend -Eagan Soccer and Sting Soccer. Mr. Keith Campbell explained they are two separate programs. He stated Sting Soccer was never a City program and explained that Mendota Heights children have been using the West St. Paul program since 1974 and they are charged a $5.00 non- resident fee by the City of West St. Paul. Mr. Campbell stated there are 150 Mendota Heights kids in the West St. Paul program and Sibley Sting is a traveling arm of this soccer program. Commissioner Spicer stated that Mend - Eagan was a Fall soccer program and the summer soccer program is conducted by the City of West St. Paul's recreation department. Spicer stated West St. Paul has no basketball program and West St. Paul kids play in Mend -Eagan basketball program with no fee charged for non-resident. Mr. John Bruder stated competitive youth soccer is played in the summer in Minnesota and there are approximately 26,000 kids state wide participating in the summer programs. Mr. Bruder stated a traveling soccer team was put together a few years ago and is made up of Mendota Heights and West St. Paul children, many of whom play in December 10, 1991 Page 3 eliminating the ability to expand the west field to a larger size and also narrowing the setbacks between the two fields. A discussion ensued about moving the NSP power poles and raising the sag point of the wires as they cross the fields. Parks Project Manager Kullander estimated it would be approximately $20,000 to relocate a pole and that we are constrained by the need to stay within the easement if the wires are shifted. Kullander stated it was a possibility to add a new pole that would raise the sag point. The Parks and Recreation Commission directed staff to get an estimate from NSP about the possibility of moving poles or raising the sag point. Sting representatives indicated that their preference was Option B. the plan that showed moving the fields to the west away from the power lines. Chair Huber introduced the issue of crowning the fields as opposed to the original design which relied upon sheet drainage. Civil Engineer Klayton Eckles addressed the question about crowned fields verses sheet drainage by stating that the original design had relied upon sheet drainage because it would cost approximately $30,000 less to construct it. Etkies,stated the grade elevations are a problem on th nd of the site because of the development grad at will be constructed with the multi -family units there. Eckles stated that Option B crowds the fields to the west where there are some grade changes. Eckles explained that a properly crowned field is actually crowned both ways from the center and also crowned toward both goals. Eckles explained that the sheet drainage design relied on a one percent grade and this means a one foot change in elevation in one hundred feet. Eckles stated this is a very gentle slope and would be hard to detect with the naked eye. Commissioner Lundeen stated that puddling areas are a function of the soils underneath the turf. Lundeen stated sheet drainage is more likely to retain water that has to drain for a further distance than on a crowned field. Commissioner Lundeen stated that typically Mendota Heights is not sandy soil which provides a better percolation. Lundeen stated a crown field splits the drainage into two separate directions and water does not have to drain as far with the crown field. Lundeen stated that most play on a soccer field is down the middle and the crown helps the field dry in the middle at a faster rate. Mr_ Jim Adams sated Visitation field which was recently December 10, 1991 Page 5 with sprinkling being provided. Chair Huber inquired if the forty foot separation between the two soccer fields was adequate. There was consensus on this item. Chair Huber inquired about the backstops that had been in last month's concept design. The Commission and guests were of a consensus that the backstops should be deleted from the plan. Mr. Keith Campbell stated that while the crowned fields were the first priority of the Sting soccer he was concerned that any backstops in this area would add to the wear and tear in the goal areas of the soccer fields. Chair Huber stated the concession stand request should be prefaced by comments that the City has not yet decided how to handle the concession stand or lease at Mendakota Park and there would be no guarantee that Sting or Mend - Eagan would actually end up running any concession stand built by the City. Chair Huber explained the City has not yet sought bids on the lease of the Mendakota stand and he is aware the fire department and an outside private interest have both expressed interest in operating the concession stands. Mr. John Bruder stated Sting would like to see a concession area with this park design. Parks Project Manager Kullander explained that at the October meeting the building had been designed with an overhang. Kullander stated that by the November meeting the Parks Commission had decided a picnic area with shelters would be better than an overhang which would be adjacent to the parking lot. Kullander displayed potential kiosks that could provide shelter from the elements on the other side of the play equipment, away from the parking lot. Kullander explained the building originally proposed included two toilets, mechanical room and a storage area at an approximate cost of $50,000 to $60,000. Kullander stated adding a concession area would cost approximately $10,000. Chair Huber stated if it was Sting's intent to sell simply pop and potato chips that this could be handled by vending machines. Chair Huber stated that anything beyond simple vending items require health code improvements that can become quiet expensive in designing the concession area. Chair Huber inquired if a concession area was absolutely necessary and if it was a high priority of the soccer interests. Chair Huber inquired if vending machines would be sufficient. Mr. Keith Campbell responded that the power lines and the crowning of the fields are the priority issues, however a concession area was provided at the softball fields and a concession area should be provided at the soccer area. Commissioner Lundeen stated he disagreed on this issue December 10, 1991 Page 7 4. That the Parks and Recreation Commission recommend sprinkling and irrigation be included. 5. That the Parks and Recreation Commission recommend there be no backstops included in this design. 6. That the Parks and Recreation Commission recommend there be no lighting of the fields. That the Parks and Recreation Commission recommend not to include a concession area in the building. 8. That the storage design for nets and soccer equipment be included. 9. That two or three small picnic shelter areas should be included in the design instead of an overhang attached to the building., These picnic shelters will be located east of the play equipment. Commissioner Hunter seconded the motion. AYES: 7 NAYS: 0 NORTH KENSINGTON PARK AREA Chair Huber stated there had been long discussions with some controversy over the design of the north park. Huber stated that last month the Commission voted for a very active use concept in this area with hard court facilities. Administrative Assistant Batchelder explained that in October staff had come forward with a recommendation the north park area be mostly an open grass area for multi use fields with trails, parking lot and a backstop with benches without a skinned in field. Batchelder stated Mr. Kullander had been selected to be the design person for this park and his original design had been based on his understanding of the intent for this park. Batchelder stated at the October meeting there had been requests to design the park as a more passive style park and at that point the Parks and Recreation Commission had directed staff to look into including Hagstrom-King Park in the design concept for this area's park needs. Batchelder stated in November the north park had been recommended to be a very active park with tennis facilities, basketball facilities, horseshoe facilities, picnic shelters, enhanced trail system and parking lot. Batchelder stated staff had input from two Councilmembers regarding this preliminary recommendation. Batchelder stated the Councilmembers had AYES: 7 NAYS: 0 December 10, 1991 Page 9 there that want to see it as a developed practice field. Sting representatives requested the City notify them when further consideration of the park design is done. Commissioner Spicer moved that the north area of Kensington Park be recommended as a grass Field only as a temporary solution with the design concept to be looked at in the future. Commissioner Hunter seconded the motion. Mr. John Bruder stated Sting Soccer appreciates the time and energy and consideration given to their request by the Parks and Recreation Commission and staff. He stated he would like to see the Parks Commission, as a group, take an aggressive stance on the power line issue and its location to the fields. Mr. Bruder stated this decision at this time would be critical to the future use of these fields and we need to provide a good solution now before the fields are built. Chair Huber stated he appreciates the complimentary remarks and thanked the guests for a positive meeting. INDOOR PARK REQUEST Chair Huber stated that when he first saw the request for an indoor park he was surprised to see this person was only asking for something the size of a classroom. Commissioner Katz stated she felt this request was a good idea. Administrative Assistant Batchelder explained that the City had received a letter from a resident requesting the City to look into the idea of an indoor park for toddlers and their parents in the winter, when it is impossible to play outdoors. Batchelder explained he had included in his memo some of the current resources available to parents including the Community Education Department, Early Childhood and Family Education Department, private dance classes and Turner's Gymnastics. Commissioner Damberg stated that she is empathetic to the request, however the City's recreation program is only at an embryo stage at this point. Damberg stated that the recreation program needs to be determined by the City first before we can explore ideas such as this which she believes is a good idea. She stated this resident should explore her options with Independent School District No. 197 and with private businesses in the area. ADJOURN December 10, 1991 Page 11 discussed regarding the possibility of putting native wild flowers along our City bike trails. Commissioner Damberg provided a copy of an article on the wild flower issue. There being no further businessI the Parks and Recreation Commission adjourned their meeting at 9020 o'clock P.M. Respectfully submitted, Kevin Batchelder Administrative Assistant CITY OF MENDOTA HEIGHTS MEMO January 81 1992 To: Parks and Recreation Commission From: Kevin Batchelder, Administrative Assista0p Subject: Kensington Building - Preliminary Sketches Keith Sjoquist, Station 19 Architects DISCUSSION At the January 7, 1992 City Council meeting, the Council approved a contract with Station 19 Architects for the design of the Kensington Park building in the south park area. Parks Project Manager Guy Kullander has provided preliminary direction to Station 19 regarding the Parks and Recreation Commission's and the City Council's input on the design of the building. In addition, Station 19 architects Keith Sjoquist and Dick Bromley met with staff and Councilmember Blesener on January 8th to discuss the design of the building. Station 19 will have preliminary rough sketches prepared for the Parks and Recreation Commission meeting on January 14th and Mr. Sjoquist will be present to provide a presentation of the preliminary design for the building and surrounding area. The Commission should discuss the design and provide direction to the architects. ACTION REQUIRED Discuss the preliminary building design with the architect and staff and make a recommendation on the preparation of final plans and specifications to City Council based on the preferred preliminary design. CITY OF MENDOTA HEIGHTS MEMO January 8, 1992 To: Parks and Recreation Commission From: Kevin Batchelder, Administrative Assistant Subject: Kensington Park Update DISCUSSION At the December 17, 1991 City Council meeting, Park Commission Chair John Huber and Parks Project Manager Guy Kullander presented the preliminary design plan for Kensington Park that had been recommended by the Parks and Recreation Commission. City Council accepted the plan, however they delayed ordering final plans and specifications to allow staff time to discuss possible site modifications with Centex Homes and Northern States Power to separate the soccer field and the power lines. Staff has discussed modifications with NSP pertaining to the existing power lines that cross the easterly soccer field. The modifications investigated are described on the attached drawings titled Options 1, 2 & 3. Centex Homes has also been contacted about providing more land along the westerly edge of the site to allow a realignment the soccer fields. The options provided in the discussions with Centex Homes are illustrated in Option 4 and Option 5 which are attached to this memo. Staff will be discussing these alternatives with City Council at their January 21, 1992 meeting when City Council will be reviewing the preliminary plans again. ACTION REQUIRED No action is required of the Parks and Recreation Commission, this item is provided as an update on the progress of Kensington Park. #I. BURY �ow� �iNES _ �5oo,oc>o #2. ADD "MID-rvf"l" rvus dc: 0j 0 3. MOUE PoLE- - LINES ( SEE ARAW NC) * ID0�O00 ppT�pNs: �, 2, �3 Pow�RLiNES 1�i0T@: EUMINkTGS 22 aw1TS -___ _LOWERS- DQNSity _OPT�DN: 5 PNRCHA56 CENTEK -_ l.oT s _ t � 2. Page No. 3187 December 17, 1991 was raised because the Commission wants Council to be aware of the problem. Mr. Huber informed Council that the impact of the power line will depend on where the sag crosses the field. The nature of soccer is such that a ball could get up high quickly, and the ball could strike the power lines. Until the field is built, the full impact of the powerline problem will not be known. Councilmember Blesener stated that she feels Council should wait to determine a solution until after the fields are graded. She also felt that the fields are really being crowded because of the power lines and suggested that the City work with the developer to see if it is possible to acquire more property to the west. If this could be accomplished, she indicated that she would be willing to consider minor variances in the setbacks for the first cluster of Kensington buildings. She also felt that there should be 60 feet between the two fields to allow more room for bleachers and separation between the fields. Mayor Mertensotto expressed concern that all of the City's soccer fields are too small and that the Kensington fields are now being scaled down. A representative of the soccer group stated that field one is fine but that field 2 is shrinking. He expressed concern that 40 feet between fields may not be enough room and that the second field may be further reduced to accommodate greater distance between fields. He further stated that a power wire 28 feet over a soccer field is not acceptable and that a 38 foot height is questionable. Mayor Mertensotto suggested delaying a decision until January to allow time to contact Centex about additional land. Councilmember Blesener raised other design issues, including the Commission's decision not to include a concession area. She felt that the park should not be treated differently from Mendakota or Sibley. She also suggested that unless code requires two toilets in the women's room, one should be eliminated to free up space to provide for a future concession area. Page No. 3189 December 17, 1991 north, and that he has seen planes at 80 degrees north. He stated that the City must live with the restriction on a 118 degree south boundary, a precedent which has been established. He expressed anger over the amount of building being allowed in the southeast area of the City and commented that Eagan does not allow any building north of 118 degrees and felt that because of the building being allowed the City's threat to litigate will do nothing. He stated that if the requested test were for 100-118 degrees he would contribute to the fund. Mayor Mertensotto responded that the cities that have threatened have gotten what they wanted, but that Mendota Heights has been trying to work within the system. He pointed out that the problem is that there is a southern boundary. This does not mean that independent of whatever changes occur at MSP the boundary can never be changed. He felt that Council must say it does not have to accept the mind set that the boundary cannot change but rather that the noise should be shared on an equitable basis. Mr. Joe Maegher stated that he was in favor of setting up the ANLEF fund but has problems with the resolution. He further stated that the resolution indicates that the test results are unacceptable but that he understands Council .has not yet evaluated the flight tracks. The Collette proposal of a 90 to 150 degree corridor was presented to Eagan and they turned it down in 1989. In June 1991 a vote was taken and Council accepted 100 to 118 degrees, the test started later and now Council is going to give the FAA and MAC 90 days to run the test again. He asked what will happen if they say no. Mayor Mertensotto responded that the City will begin litigation, and that the problem is repeated overflights at 80-90 second intervals. Councilmember Smith pointed out that the other part of the resolution was to collect $25,000 and allow six months to do that. Council has the opportunity to present the case and back that up with further action. If the minimum of $25,000 can be collected, the City will CITY OF MENDOTA HEIGHTS MEMO January 8, 1992 To: Parks and Recreation Commission From: Kevin Batchelder, Administrative Assist< � Subject: Discussion of Recreation Programming and Staffing DISCUSSION At the December 10, 1991 Commission meeting, Commissioner Damberg requested the subject of recreation staffing be placed on the agenda for discussion by the Commission. As the Commission is aware, recreation programming is a topic we have begun to explore now that we have numerous, recently constructed park facilities in the City. At past meetings we have discussed possible cooperative ventures with the West St. Paul parks and recreation department and we have briefly looked at what other, cities in the area are providing in the way of recreation programs. Staff is currently in the process of compiling an inventory of what programs exist locally, who the providers are and what level of programming neighboring and similar sized cities are offering. It is our hope that when this inventory is complete we will be able to compare levels of programming with other cities, determine what local providers such as Mend -Eagan, Community Education, etc. are providing, determine the gaps in service and conduct a needs analysis to determine what gaps the City might wish to fill. At that point we would be able to begin to look at staffing levels. I will be prepared to discuss the progress of this inventory on Tuesday evening and how the inventory will help Mendota Heights analyze needs for recreation programming. ACTION REQUIRED Discuss Commissioner's Dambergs request to explore recreation staffing levels, discuss recreation programming and provide direction to staff. CITY OF MENDOTA HEIGHTS FSi�iLC�7 January 8, 1992 To: Parks and Recreation Commission �D From: Kevin Batchelder, Administrative Assistan (0 \ Subject: Response to Request for Wildflowers Along Trailways Feasibility Report DISCUSSION At the December Commission meeting, Commissioner Damberg provided an article on Wildflowers and requested that staff place this item on the agenda for Commission consideration. (Please see attached article, In Support of Wildflowers.) Guy Kullander, Parks Project Manager, will be prepared to provide a verbal feasibility report at Tuesday night's meeting. He will be discussing a possible pilot program to experiment with -the feasibility of planting and maintaining wildflowers along portions of the trail system. Included in this discussion will be approximate costs, staff time, seeding, possible sites, equipment, and contracting with vendors. Possible funding sources for a pilot program are the Special Park Fund or as a budgeted item in the 1993 general fund parks budget. Guy and I feel this is not an appropriate expenditure of referendum monies as it is a new item and was not included in any discussion or marketing of the referendum. The Midwest Regional Office of the National Wildflower Research will be Center is available sending over some information and hopefully that for Tuesday evening's meeting. ACTION REQUIRED Discuss the feasibility of a trailway wildflower project and provide staff with direction on an appropriate course of action. Black-eyed Susan (Rudbeckia hirta) It is important not to collect plants in the wild, Harper -Lore -'. says. She does not discowage people from collecting seeds in '. the wild, however, if it is done cazefully and with pernvssion from the landowner. Bonnie Harper -Lore brings to her new position a lifetime of interest in native plants and a commitment to their preserva- lion and restoration. "As a child, I was always interested in wildflowers," she says. "On Sunday afternoon drives, I was the one in the back seat with my face pressed against the glass try- ing to identify flowers along the road. By the Hme I was grown '; up and had a family, I realized that my children never asked to stop along the roadside to see the pretty flowers, because by that time most had been 'herbicided' and mowed out of exis- tence. Iwanted to do something to make swe future genera- tions would be able to enjoy them." Y -per-Lore majored in education with a botany minor and to ' for a couple of years before raising a family. Later she got a graduate degree in landscape architecture from the University of Wisconsin. "My focus was on restoration of native plants and I went to work for the Department of Transportation as wildflower restoration coordinator." She also became a member of the 1989 Roadside Wildflower Task Force which identified wildflowers as both flowers and grasses, and recommended that only native or indigenous wildflowers (those that existed here before Ewopean settlers arrived in the 1800s) be used in roadside plantings. Harper -Lore met David Northington, the director of the National Wildflower Research Center, in 1987 and suggested that perhaps the Texas office would be better able to serve the nation if it added regional offices. "He told me that if we could find the money to make it happen, they would open the first one in Minnesota;' she says. The Midwest Regional Office of the National Wildflower Research Center was established with a $100,000 grant from the 1989 Minnesota Legislature which was matched by the national center. It is a prototype for additional regional centers to open across the nation and �is responsible for coordinating and promoting activities in 11 states: Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, North Dakota, South Dakota, Michigan, Nebraska, Illinois, Kansas, Indiana, and Missouri. For more information about the Midwest Regional Office of the National Wildflower Reseazch Center, contact them at 725 Spring Hill Road, Wayzata, MN 55391 (612)475-0045. ❑ Mavis Voigt is a free-lance writer and photographer who lives in Minneapolis. Her photograph of a sugar maple appeared on the cover of the OctoberlNovember 1991 issue of Minnesota Horticulturist. Sources of native plants Landscape Alternatives, Inc. 1465 Pascal Street St. Paut; MN 55108 (612)488-3142 Prairie Nursery PO Box 306 Westfield, WI53964 (608)296-3679 Prairie Restorations, Inc. PO Box 327 Princeton, MN 55371 (612)389-4342 Prairie Ridge Nursery 9738 Overland Rd Mt. Horeb, WI 53572-2832 (608)437-5245 Prairie Moon Nursery Route 3, Box 163 Winona, MN 55987 (50f7)452-1362 December 1991 CITY OF MENDOTA HEIGHTS MEMO January 8, 1992 To: Parks and Recreation Commission From: Kevin Batchelder, Administrative Assistant® Subject: Reconsideration of Sibley Play Equipment for 1992 DISCUSSION The Commission will recall that one year ago a recommendation was made to City Council to defer the construction of the proposed Sibley Park play equipment in 1991. The money intended for the project ($24,000) was set aside and reserved for play equipment in this park at some future date. (See attached memo and minutes from the February 1991 meeting.) Now that Sibley Park will be ready for its first full summer of use, it is appropriate to reconsider the construction of this play equipment in 1992. The options for the Sibley play equipment include: 1. Build the equipment in 1992 and expend $24,000. 2. Defer the construction another year and reserve the $24,000 as earmarked money for Sibley play equipment. 3. Defer the construction and don't reserve any money for construction of Sibley play equipment. ACTION REQUIRED Consider the construction of the Sibley Play Equipment for 1992 and make a recommendation. CITY OF MENDOTA HEIGHTS MEMO February 7, 1991 To: Parks and Recreation Commission From: Kevin Batchelder, Administrative ASSiAs Subject: Sibley Park - Play Equipment DISCIISSION At the January Parks and Recreation Commission meeting, the Commission discussed priorities for future work on the referendum. One item discussed was the play equipment for Sibley Park. The Commission recommended that this item be put off for a year and then reconsidered. The City Council, while acknowledging the minutes of your priority discussion, disagreed and requested that the Parks and Recreation Commission reconsider the play equipment at Sibley Park for 1991 construction. The money allocated for.this item4,has been set aside as earmarked funds for 5'ibl.ey play equipment'. The amount is $20,000 plus 20% for contingencylf r a total of $24,000. The Commission will recall that their?' lecon�metldation was based on a perception that the need was not evident foJ7 play equipment at this park and the incompatibility with the high school. Councilmember Blesener feels their is a strong need for play equipment in this neighborhood and the participants who will be using the ballfields in the future. She would like the Parks and Recreation Commission to consider 1991 construction. ACTION REOIIIRED Reconsider the earlier recommendation and determine need and priority for the Sibley Park play equipment and forward a recommendation to the City Council. a high school. Huber stated that the Commission = had also been concerned that there has not been a demand from local residents to provide play equipment in this area of town and that the site is not easily accessible to neighborhood children. Commissioner Spicer asked when Sibley Park would come on line. Parks Project Manager Guy Kullander stated that it would be mid to late summer. Spicer stated that this would be after the Mend -Eagan season and that it was reasonable to defer this part of the project until it could be seen how the Sibley Park was coming along. Spicer stated that school officials had indicated to him that the play equipment is inappropriate and would be an inviting target for misuse and vandalism. Commissioner Hunter inquired if there was an area nearby that could serve this part of town where the play equipment could be built instead. Kullander stated that there was none that the City currently owned, however land might be developed north of Marie that could involved park dedications, or land could be purchased fro the _Dodd Road highway R.O.W:2 turnbacks in the,�orth East corner of Dodd and Hw }1b. Commissioner Spicer stated that he felt M�h�ako�a'Rark would be the place for adults, with families, play softball and that Sibley no longer has the �emand for play equipment now that Mendakota Park is the premier softball site. He stated Sibley would be more youth oriented field use. Spicer stated that should it be determined that Sibley needs the play equipment it could always be built in the future, that the site accommodates it and the money has been set aside. Commissioner Lundeen inquired about the number of houses in the area and if there were a lot of children in the area. Kullander stated there were 18 houses within a quarter mile. Spicer stated his opinion would be different if Sibley was the only site we had, but now that Mendakota was being developed it might not be necessary to put play equipment at Sibley. Chair John Huber stated that the kids will be at Sibley whether it is youth or adult oriented. Chair John Huber stated that he senses the Commission wishes to stick with their original recommendation. He stated this recommendation was to defer the play equipment project because the Sibley Park was not on line yet, and wouldn't be until the Mend -Eagan season was over, that Mendakota would be a primary site, that a need for