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2005-05-11 Airport Relations Commission Minutes2005-05-11 Airport Relations Commission Minutes.txt[1/25/2018 4:19:07 PM] 1 CITY OF MENDOTA HEIGHTS DAKOTA COUNTY, MINNESOTA AIRPORT RELATIONS COMMISSION MINUTES May 11, 2005 The regular meeting of the Mendota Heights Airport Relations Commission was held on Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 7:00 p.m., in the Large Conference Room at City Hall, 1101 Victoria Curve, Mendota Heights, Minnesota. The following Commissioners were present: Scott Beaty, Vern Edstrom, Brian Linnihan, Liz Petschel, Mike Povolny and Ellsworth Stein. Staff present; Jim Danielson, City Administrator; and Bonita Sullivan, Recorder. Others Present: Ultan Duggan, NOC Representative and City Council Member; Sandra Krebsbach, NOC Representative and City Council Member; Ms. Sullivan took the minutes. Not Present: Commissioner John Roszak Approval of Minutes A. March 9, 2005 Minutes Commissioner Petschel had the following corrections: • Page 4, first sentence, should state Jill Smith • Page 5, Last paragraph, add the sentence Commissioner Petschel stated that the legislation would give Cities more control over sound abatement funding. A motion was made by Commissioner Petschel, second by Commissioner Edstrom to approve the March 9, 2005 minutes as amended. Motion carried 6-0 Council Member Duggan stated that he would like to amend the minutes with the following corrections: • Page 3, fifth paragraph, should state: Council Member Duggan stated that there is documentation available that may show that properties in the southwest area may have decreased in value, of the homes comparably away, in comparison to homes located around O’Hare, based on a study done at O’Hare airport. Motion by Commissioner Petschel, second by Commissioner Linnihan to approve the amended March 9, 2005 minutes as amended. Motion carried 6-0 B. April 13, 2005 Minutes Commissioner Edstrom had the following corrections: Commission Meeting May 11, 2005 Mendota Heights Airport Relations Commission 2 • Page 2, paragraph 9, should read: Commissioner Edstrom noted that there has been a turnaround in feelings with respect to the 090-degree heading at the end of Runway 12. • Page 7, 3rd bullet under ‘Global Positioning Satellites, shows ‘Commissioners agreed to remove Item ??.’ What is Item ?? Commissioner Petschel had the following corrections: • Page 3, NOC Update, second paragraph, second sentence should read: She stated that the number of complaints from the north side of Highway 110 have increased from the numbers on the south side. • Page 3, third paragraph, should read: Commissioner Povolny stated that he was interested to see that the results of the NOC vote were unanimous. 2005-05-11 Airport Relations Commission Minutes.txt[1/25/2018 4:19:07 PM] Council Member Duggan had the following correction: • Page 4, fourth paragraph, third sentence should read: ‘City Administrator Danielson contact the MPCA’ A motion was made by Commissioner Petschel, second by Commissioner Edstrom to approve the April 13, 2005 minutes as amended. Motion carried 6-0. Public Comments NONE Unfinished/New Business A. Chad Leqve – Crossing the Corridor Update Chair Beaty thanked Chad for coming this evening. Chad Leqve, MAC, stated that Scott Scramstead would provide the Commissioners with an overview and update on the use of the Crossing the Corridor Procedures noting that the report process has turned into a useful tool and format for accessing how the procedure is being used. He stated that Cindy Green is also present to provide further perspective and insight on the findings. Scott Scramstead provided the Commission with a brief history of the Mendota Heights corridor noting that over the years there have been many discussions and refinements including a proposal, in 1995, for the crossing the corridor procedure. He reviewed the procedure noting that it was designed to concentrate as many operations as possible in the center of the corridor, which is a commercial/industrial area, in order to avoid the majority of the residential areas. He provided an overview of the operations for 12R and 12L and reviewed the variables used for actual use noting that they could only be implemented when operationally feasible, which provides the Air Traffic Controllers control of when to implement the procedure. He stated that MASAC Operations Commission Meeting May 11, 2005 Mendota Heights Airport Relations Commission 3 Committee discussed the procedure and concerns in 1998 noting that the first study that was done analyzed a six-month timeframe from October 1997 to March 1998. He stated that a follow-up study was done from September 1998 to February 1999 noting that the reason they are here this evening is due to another request for analysis of the corridor. Mr. Scramstead stated that a study was done recently that covers the period from August 2004 to January 2005 for nighttime flights from 23:00 to 06:00 and weekend flights from Saturday at 15:00 to Sunday at 13:00. He explained that they analyzed how much the procedure is actually being used and the departure timeframes. He noted that the study also included weather conditions in order to determine any potential impacts the weather had during the specified timeframes. He stated that in summary, over a six-month period, 745 carrier jet departures occurred between 2300 to 0600, from 12L and 12R and out of the 745 departures, 203 used the crossing the corridor procedure. He provided the Commission with a comparison of the first and current study. He summarized the weekend flights stating that there were 5,685 carrier departures, with 601 performing the crossing the corridor procedure. He explained that 70.8-percent of the operations had less than two minutes of separation, which means that 30-percent of the time non-simultaneous existed and they could use the crossing the corridor procedure. He noted that this is down 16-percent from the previous 7-percent during 1998. He stated that it is important to notice that the actual time on weekends is down significantly from previous years. 2005-05-11 Airport Relations Commission Minutes.txt[1/25/2018 4:19:07 PM] Council Member Krebsbach clarified that the procedure could be used 100-percent of the time when operationally feasible. Chair Beaty stated that it is feasible from the perspective of one controller and non-simultaneous conditions. He asked if the weekend timeframe, with one controller and greater than two minutes of separation between departures had been reviewed. Mr. Scramstead stated that they found 22.4-percent usage during the weekend timeframes. Chair Beaty asked if there is a possibility that an air controller could stall to get the two minutes. Mr. Leqve noted that it would be possible but added that if they did they would have to take a capacity hit. He explained that 80-percent of the operations operate in a bank and it is expected that the percentage would increase as they move forward and continue to place more airplanes in air. He indicated that the introduction of the new runway could relieve some of the load on the parallel runways. Council Member Krebsbach stated that they would like to see the procedure used 90- percent of the time Commissioner Petschel asked for further insight on the numbers and asked if there is a new group of air controllers. Ms. Green acknowledged that they have not lived up to expectations noting that the Air Controllers have been in place for a while. She noted that it does state that they have not Commission Meeting May 11, 2005 Mendota Heights Airport Relations Commission 4 been concentrating on the crossing procedure and explained that currently they have 41 Air Controllers, noting that they are influx with 12 of the Air Controllers currently in training. She stated that the influx would continue due to turnover that is expected over the next two years due to possible retirements. She stated that those who have received the training know the procedure and can explain it when asked. She stated that she was surprised to see that use of the procedure was so low. She noted that the two-minute separation is not always the rule stating that it is up to the Air Controller to make the decision. She reviewed the fleet mix with the Commission noting that the majority used are CRJ’s, which is the fastest plane they have on takeoff. She agreed that they should be doing better and that they did let Mendota Heights and the Airport Relations Commission down with respect to the use of the procedure. She noted that when it gets as busy as it has been it is easy to get into a mode where they are working both runways and they get locked into the headings and don’t adjust to the crossing procedures. She acknowledged that she assumed that the procedure was being used noting that she was surprised at the numbers when the study was completed. Council Member Krebsbach asked about the possibilities of shifting runway use further over 494 and the industrial areas on Saturdays and Sundays. Mr. Leqve explained that if they were to shift the track 5-degrees south it would impact and change other tracks. Council Member Krebsbach asked if a 5-degree shift would put the air traffic directly over Eagan. Chair Beaty noted that there are Residents directly to the south in that area. Council Member Krebsbach stated that it would be a huge improvement if they could work to relieve some of the noise during the weekend timeframe. Ms. Green acknowledged stating that the weekends are becoming just as busy as the weekdays. She noted that currently they staff one less on Saturday night and Sunday. Chair Beaty clarified that the numbers reflected in the study are only for weekend operations. He noted that the weekend operations were up by 64-percent, which is a real increase over the 1997 study. 2005-05-11 Airport Relations Commission Minutes.txt[1/25/2018 4:19:07 PM] Mr. Leqve reviewed the fleet mix noting that Northwest Airlines sees MSP Airport as their central hub for domestic air in the Midwest. Council Member Duggan asked if the FAA has any concerns regarding capacity at the airport, specifically with safety. He asked if a study was done that indicates capacity and current trends, where they expect to be by 2020 and 2030. Mr. Leqve stated that the dual track was finalized in September 1998 adding that there are studies that include 2010 and 2020 but nothing solid with 2030. Council Member Duggan stated that as they project towards 2030 has anyone asked or considered what the capacity would be, as they know it, with 17-35, with respect to physical size and capacity. Mr. Leqve stated that before he could truly answer a determination would have to be made as to what would be an acceptable delay from the Commission Meeting May 11, 2005 Mendota Heights Airport Relations Commission 5 airlines. He stated that he could say that the Commission is looking out to 2020, without any reservation and are considering an expansion, but there are no numbers documented beyond 2020. Council Member Duggan thanked Mr. Leqve for clarifying stating that the growth is here and asked how they plan to get it on a map and project out for transportation needs. Mr. Leqve explained that they are looking at a 2020 expansion plan and plan to develop the airport in a phased manner. He noted that it appears, from policy discussions currently taking place, that nothing has been discussed on dual track. Chair Beaty noted that in reviewing last month’s numbers he saw that 5-percent of the operations were using the head to head procedures. Council Member Krebsbach asked if this would swing over to the north-south when the new runway opens. Ms. Green said no, they would continue to use the parallels. Chair Beaty stated that it was the Commission’s hope that this would decrease with the new runway, especially with the night flights. He noted that it appears the head to head takeoffs tend to come over Mendota Heights. He stated that the arrivals aren’t bad but the takeoffs are. Commissioner Petschel agreed noting that it is very noisy until after 11:30 p.m. Council Member Krebsbach agreed stating that their biggest concern is to gain some relief in the evenings or on the weekends, so that the residents can be able to open their windows or enjoy their deck and yard. Mr. Leqve acknowledged their concerns adding that he is sympathetic with what he is hearing. He explained that they have to have a balance between the Cities adding that if they make any shifts it would impact other areas. He stated that they are trying to figure out a way to provide relief without impacting other areas as a result. Commissioner Petschel noted that in terms of noise, this is the season when people want to be able to open their windows and enjoy the outdoors. She noted that this is also the season of prevailing southerly winds, which is when the air noise tends to increase. She stated that if they could increase the numbers by one or two percent, even small tweaks to the system could have a tremendous affect on people inundated with the noise. Ms. Green stated that at the rate the airport is going, they should do better with utilizing the crossing the corridor procedure. She indicated that the opportunities to utilize the procedure are getting far and in-between with the increase in operations and reviewed. Council Member Krebsbach stated that they have been told that there would be a 38- percent reduction with the north/south opening of the runway. Ms. Green confirmed and 2005-05-11 Airport Relations Commission Minutes.txt[1/25/2018 4:19:07 PM] explained that it would be at different times of the day noting that they might see a reduction at night. Commission Meeting May 11, 2005 Mendota Heights Airport Relations Commission 6 Council Member Duggan stated that he is glad to hear Ms. Green acknowledge their concerns and express her disappointment with the results. He stated that he is happy to hear that she is willing to work on making improvements. He suggested getting together a year from now, after they have six months of history and data, to discuss the runway use. Ms. Green noted that they would probably not get good data on actual use of the new runway until around February or March of next year due to the changes in air controllers and how they plan to initially operate the new runway. Mr. Leqve stated that it is their hope to gain the nod of approval at the NOC meeting scheduled on May 26, 2005 at 1:00 p.m. He stated that depending upon approval, it would then go forward to the MAC Committee for consideration in June. He stated that he would forward the June date to the ARC Commission noting that the meeting would be located at the General Office Building. He stated that this would probably be a discussion item and suggested sending a representative. Commissioner Povolny asked how many new controllers are in training noting that they are flying north of Highway 110, planes are being sent for a hard turn north. He clarified that these are large jets, not commuter planes. Ms. Green stated that currently 12 Air Controllers are in training. She explained that it could be a wind factor noting that wind factors affect all planes the same and could be the reason for the early turn. He noted that there is a learning curve to get the air controllers up to speed and there would be times, during inclement weather, where they would utilize these procedures. She noted that the farthest the plane can turn north is 090. Mr. Leqve suggested checking out the website www.macnoise.com. He stated that the website has an online GPS system that could be used to test flight tracks. B. Noise Level Study Chair Beaty stated that City Administrator Danielson did some research and found that there are laws that are applicable and that aircraft noise is exempt. Council Member Duggan referenced the first page of definitions in Minnesota Rules, sub-paragraph 8, Line 10 stating that if they could calculate noise levels greater than 65 for six minutes in any one hour they would then have an actionable case. He stated that they know that the planes are noisier but they don’t know the duration of the noise. He suggested documenting the noise levels in various areas and present their findings to the MCPA. Commission Meeting May 11, 2005 Mendota Heights Airport Relations Commission 7 C. NOC Update Council Member Duggan stated that the next NOC meeting is scheduled in two weeks at 1:30 p.m. at the MAC Headquarters. D. Airport Noise Plan of Action Chair Beaty reviewed the changes and asked if the Commissioners had anything further to add or correct. The Commission agreed that the document stands as presented. Chair Beaty asked City Administrator Danielson to add them to the next City Council 2005-05-11 Airport Relations Commission Minutes.txt[1/25/2018 4:19:07 PM] Agenda to present the amended Airport Noise Plan of Action. Commissioner Edstrom motioned, Commissioner Povolny seconded to accept the Airport Noise Plan of Action as amended. Motion carried 6-0 E. Buren, WA Airport Study City Administrator Danielson stated that he was interviewed for the Buren WA Airport Study. He stated that he received a copy of the study and provided to the Commission for their review. F. Australian Air Noise Plan Chair Beaty explained that this item came up due to their interest in how they measure DNL. He stated that their process of measurement is done differently and is supposedly more people friendly. He reviewed the criteria used noting that it would be nice to see if the MAC would be interested in incorporating some of the criteria items. He suggested incorporating this item into the Plan of Action as a reference item. G. Quarterly News article input City Administrator Danielson reviewed the ARC article for the City quarterly news bulletin. H. Term Limit Discussion Council Member Krebsbach provided the Commission with an update noting that that the sense was that the majority would go for term limits. She reviewed the changes with the Commission stating that Council wanted to have the ability to bring someone back. Commissioner Linnihan asked how term limits would affect the ARC. Chair Beaty stated that with the new term limits he would be done in January and the many of the other members would be done by end of next summer. He noted that term limits could be good in some cases stating that he did recommend to both Council Member Krebsbach and the Commission Meeting May 11, 2005 Mendota Heights Airport Relations Commission 8 Mayor that he thought the term limits should be four terms for the ARC due to the learning curve. Council Member Duggan explained that the biggest issue was the fact that eight or nine candidates, with very impressive backgrounds, came forward this year. He stated that the Council wanted to come up with a way where they would be able to tap into the knowledge base in the community. Commissioner Petschel expressed her concerns stating that it is a bad idea and bad government. She explained that there is a lot at stake here noting that if they were to poll the people of Mendota Heights they would find that the two main issues are taxes and airport noise. She stated that the Planning Commission has considerable staff but this is not true for the ARC. She stated that with the proposed term limits several of the members of the Commission would come up for replacement and it would gut this Commission. She stated that when it comes to airport issues there is a lot at stake and this City does not have the resources to hire a staff person to do what this Commission does. She stated that the Planning Commission reviews issues several times before finalizing and the same should apply with noise issues that impact this City. She stated that for this reason term limits are a bad idea. She stated that applying term limits creates another problem and shows that this is a failure to address the real problem. 2005-05-11 Airport Relations Commission Minutes.txt[1/25/2018 4:19:07 PM] Council Member Krebsbach agreed that the idea of term limits does create a disconnect noting that she did vote against it. She indicated that she did get the clause included for reappointment noting that the Council wants to broaden the constituency. Chair Beaty stated that he and Commissioner Stein are the only two Commissioners that have been members of the ARC from the beginning. He noted that it seems like normal attrition has occurred within this group over the years naturally and does not see the need for term limits. He agreed that there is too much at stake with respect to the learning curve. Council Member Duggan agreed stating that the ARC could make a good case for four terms on this Commission due to the huge learning curve with this particular body. He stated that the Council does have a strong interest in having a pilot or someone with flying experience as a member of the ARC, which is one difference that could be used as a considered requirement for this Commission. He stated that he would bring up their concerns and suggestions at the next City Council meeting. Acknowledge Receipt of Various Reports/Correspondence: Commissioner Petschel noted that the Airport Noise Report references the lawsuit and reviewed. She stated that the Technical Advisor Report indicates that operations continue to increase noting that there are more out of the corridor flights and the night operations have increased. Commission Meeting May 11, 2005 Mendota Heights Airport Relations Commission 9 Commissioner Stein referenced page six of the March ANOM report noting that the numbers are high again. The Commission briefly reviewed the following documents: a. MSP Noise News – April 2005. b. March 2005 ANOM Technical Advisor’s Report. c. March 2005 ANOM Eagan/Mendota Heights Departure Corridor Analysis. d. Airport Noise Report, April 11, 2005 e. Airport Noise Report, April 25, 2005 f. Airport Noise Report, May 2, 2005 OTHER COMMENTS OR CONCERNS Council Member Krebsbach asked if the Commission is planning on doing their annual televised meeting. Chair Beaty stated that the plan is to utilize the summer months to put together an agenda for the fall season. Chair Beaty noted that Pilot Knob could be part of the land trust. City Administrator Danielson gave the Commission an update on the court process. NEXT AGENDA • Annual Televised ARC Meeting • Noise Level Study The Commission agreed, by consensus, to adjourn the meeting at 9:44 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Bonita Sullivan TimeSaver Off Site Secretarial, Inc.